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Author Message
Grave


M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
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Send Message Posted: January 21, 2005 12:05 PM
If you have long tube headers, have you had any problems with your O2 sensors?

I keep getting Insufficient Switching on both B1S1 and B2S1...

Right now I'm using the Bosch 13111 rear Corvette O2 sensors on both Sensor 1's. Before installing them I was getting Heater Malfunctions in both Sensor 1's and Low Voltages in both Sensor 2's.

So far the Bosch sensors helped get rid of my Heater Malfunction. Oddly enough, after switching to the 13111's I no longer get the Low Voltage DTC's for the rear.

Just wondering what other people on here with headers have done to their cars to get the DTC's to go off, and stay off!
Im BOSS!



M/20
,
FLORIDA
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 21, 2005 2:35 PM
you need to get o2 sims not sensors... you wont get any msgs or anythin stuff like that
Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 21, 2005 8:07 PM
You wish you were ˝ as cool as me. aka ¤KyRo¤ Wrote:
you need to get o2 sims not sensors... you wont get any msgs or anythin stuff like that


For the rear O2's yes... but I'm not worried about those. Besides, the rear O2's are working fine now.

it's the front O2's I'm having the troubles with...
Fraser



M/25
WOODRIDGE,
ILLINOIS
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 24, 2005 12:52 AM
I run stainless works long tubes on my 04 GTO and yeah I did get a B2S1 totally screwed up and fouled out the plugs on that bank, way over rich. Anytime you get a insufficent switching DTC its most likely that 02 sensor is fubar.
Alex



M/24
EAST BRUNSWICK,
NEW JERSEY
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Send Message Posted: January 25, 2005 12:08 PM
What is the exact Trouble Code that you are getting?

Ill ask my guys at CARTEK
Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 25, 2005 2:10 PM
Alex Wrote:
What is the exact Trouble Code that you are getting?



Ill ask my guys at CARTEK


P1153 - Insufficient Switching, Bank 2 Sensor 1

P1133 - Insufficient Switching, Bank 1 Sensor 1
Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 25, 2005 2:16 PM
Fraser Wrote:
I run stainless works long tubes on my 04 GTO and yeah I did get a B2S1 totally screwed up and fouled out the plugs on that bank, way over rich. Anytime you get a insufficent switching DTC its most likely that 02 sensor is fubar.


The O2's are brand new... I swapped them out when I kept getting Heater Malfunction DTC's on the pre-cats, and Low Voltage DTC's on the post-cats.

When I put the rear Vette O2 sensors in the pre-cats, it took care of my heater malfunctions, because apparently the Vette O2's have a higher heater wattage. And the rear Vette sensors also have about 24" of wiring, so I didn't even need to use my extensions.

Oddly enough, by putting in the Vette sensors, it seemed to get rid of all my post-cat DTC's as well. And I haven't even messed with those yet!

I know the DTC's are getting thrown because the sensors are located further away from the engine, because of the legnth of the headers... that's why it's throwing those codes... because the O2's aren't getting to optimal temps as fast as the PCM is used to... so the sensors are "lazy" in switching between rich and lean.

My problem is... I can't figure out how to fix the problem!
Alex



M/24
EAST BRUNSWICK,
NEW JERSEY
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Send Message Posted: January 25, 2005 2:23 PM
Grave,

I'll talk to the guys tomorrow.
Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 25, 2005 7:33 PM
Alex Wrote:
Grave,



I'll talk to the guys tomorrow.


Cool... thanks, man!
Sean



M/21
LAWRENCEVILLE,
GEORGIA
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Send Message Posted: January 26, 2005 7:55 AM
I've been having the same problem. It was ok until for about a year. Did you remove your cats as well? I got it checked out an my buddy said they are at the right numbers but they just keep saying the same message. I'm gonna get it tuned soon so maybe that'll help.
Alex



M/24
EAST BRUNSWICK,
NEW JERSEY
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 26, 2005 2:34 PM
Okay, this is what I have uncovered.

The problem is simple, but a true cure does not exist. What happened is this; the header, having an actual collector and being made of stainless steel rather then cast iron as the stock manifold is conducts heat away from the exhaust gas faster then the stock manifold. Because of this the O2 sensor that is not further then it used to be and in cooler exhaust gas then it used to be does not see a fast enough switch in the Air/Fuel curve. What I mean by that is the Air/Fuel curve is a sign wave going from lean to rich as it should, with A/F=14.7:1 being the middle of the wave.

Sometimes the problem can be solved with a new O2 sensor, a new heating coil may over come the cooler then normal exhaust gasses, but in time as the heating coil wears out the code will come back once again. Seeing as you just put in brand new sensors that step, as redundant as it becomes over time is not even necessary for you.

The only other solution is to have the code programmed out as you would when you have a car tuned/dyno-tuned. The code will not adversely effect your car from what has been seen in similar cases thus far, but its seems like turning the code off in the PCM is the only way around it.

Headers with longer then standard collectors such as LG Motorsports headers have the problem more often then others, but the problem does occasionally occur with other header manufacturers. Simply put, the exhaust gases are not hot enough for the O2 sensor and it is not seeing a fast enough switch from rich to lean due to the lower temperatures.

I know I really did not give you a solution, but I hope this sheds light on the mystery.

Alex

Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 27, 2005 6:25 AM
Thanks, Alex for the detailed info!!!

That's what I was suspecting too... the exhaust gasses just aren't hot enough. My fuel trims are right where they should be for a header equipped car.

A few people have suggested wrapping my headers with heat shielding, to help hold in the heat. I've also been told that doing so is bad for your headers, especially if you have stainless steel, and they're coated. Apparently, the the wraps work a little *too* well, and the excessive exhaust heat will warp the ceramic coating and make it flake off, and eventually the metal in the headers will warp with time.

Unfortunately, I've heard the same things as what CARTEK suggests. The only way to "fix" it is to just delete the codes.

One question I do have is... if the car detects a lean setting because of the switching problem, and counters it by dumping more fuel... in theory, could I just make my A/F ratio a little leaner, and when my PCM compensates for the insufficient switching and makes the mixture more rich, it'll balance itself out???

I'm not sure, but it makes sense to me!

Alex, would you be able to ask about these: the header wrap and my A/F question?
Alex



M/24
EAST BRUNSWICK,
NEW JERSEY
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Send Message Posted: January 27, 2005 10:33 AM
Ill ask Dave and Julio [Owners of CARTEK] about your question.

The header wrap I don't think will be a good solution, because of exactly what you said, it will cause the metal to get too hot and the expantion/contration cycles will cause the ceramic to flake off. Over time ceramic will fleak either way, but I would imagine that it happens quicker with wrap. However the wrap can protect them from the elements, but in your neck of the woods I dont imagine you having to deal with road salt and snow anytime soon.

As far as the leaning out issue I would be very weary of that. A lean motor, no making more power is not a happy motor. You will run the risk of overheating and pinging. I like to see my car no leaner then 12.5:1 or 12.7:1, and that is where Julio tuned it. Plus you cant expect every situation by doing that, and if you lean it out, it may cause a problem when the PCM might try to lean it out on its own, now you are screwd cause you are too lean.

I will however ask, they know more then I. I'll get back to you after the next time I see them. I stop by the shop fairly often cause its on my way home from school.

Alex
Alex



M/24
EAST BRUNSWICK,
NEW JERSEY
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: January 31, 2005 11:12 AM
Like I thought,

the car should not see a lean or rich condition from this problem, you leaning the car out would only make things worse. Not recomended.
Grave



M/29
CLOVIS,
NEW MEXICO
Instant Message
Send Message Posted: February 16, 2005 8:39 PM
Cool... thanks Alex for all the help!

I guess all I have to do is get the code tuned out. No big deal.

I'll probably do it once I save up enough $$$ for the new heads/cam, and then get everything tuned and the code deleted that way.